eliptical training

[QDM]

If you buy an eliptical chute such as a Chiron, get sufficient training.

At the 2003 Outback fly-in an out of state pilot totalled his Powrachute while attempting to take off with a relatively new Chiron chute. The pilot tried to take off without first getting the chute up and centered.

I was already in the air when I heard on the radio that a Powrachute had rolled on the dry lakebed. Since the Powrachute is a very sturdy craft I figured they could just roll it upright and try again, but the damage was severe.

Almost every tube on the plane was either broken or bent, warp drive prop destroyed, chute chewed by prop, engine possibly damaged due to over reving with 6" prop stubs. The upright pylon tubes were broken in two. With the exception of a few bruises, the pilot was not injured.

Bottom line is... if you are going to fly an eliptical chute, be sure to get enough training to be safe.

Q

[Grubby]

I didn't see the actual crash - but I was there before and after and took the pilot up on a flight that evening (on my Chiron). On almost all take-offs prior to the one he crashed on, he had problems with chute bad oscillation and knew it. He admitted that he made a bad decision to continue on the last take-off even though his chute was oscillating badly.

I don't view this as an "eliptical training" issue, but rather as pilot error issue which could just as easily have happened with a square chute. In fact, it has happened with square chutes and that is a pilot training, pilot error problem - same with this incident.

I can't remember the pilot's name, but he also had just completed a special training program for elipticals. We can all have problems if we make an error in judgement - regardless of what we're flying.

[woodyking]

Grubby, I've never flown an elip, but have not had an osc problem with any of the several rectangular chutes I've owned. Does your Chiron tend to have this same character? What is the method you use to control it? Do you lightly countersteer or let it take it time getting centered and calm? Most what I've heard is nail it and go, which I don't like the idea of. How do you do it? Thanks, Woody

[Grubby]

I started with a rectangular chute - no mylar - and depending on conditions, it would oscillate at times and the way to get it to quit was simply add a bit more power and eventually it would settle down overhead and be fine. If it didn't - time to abort.

Initially I had problems kiting the Chiron - because it's such a radical departure from the square. There are four/five of us here flying Chiron's and everyone had a bit of difficulty initially. Because of the chute shape and characteristics - if you attempt to full power kite, then back off and check the end cells, either the chute will overfly the cart or it'll drop back into the prop wash and hang there.

I lay my chute out inverted - and when I started flying the Chiron, I used to go to full power as soon as the lines started tightening. The end cells never fail to open since they're sealed - and off you go. I wasn't totally comfortable with that either since there's not much time to check and/or abort.

The past couple years (been flying a Chiron for three years plus now), I've taken a different tack. Lay out inverted and start slowly feeding in power. The chute will drive up overhead and as soon as it clears the prop wash, use maybe 1/3 steering bar to keep it from overflying the cart - check it out and then release the steering bar and it's off you go. If the chute hangs in the prop wash and locks out - you can unlock it by pushing full out on the steering bars and then releasing them quickly. That'll pull it down - and it'll pop up when the bars are released.

The Chiron has much, much more lift than a square - so the ground time is considerably less which is fine with me (I don't like to be on the ground with the chute up - asking for trouble).

I'm surprised you've never had oscillation - I've had it with both the rectangular and the eliptical. Not all the time - but occasionally given the right conditions. The field that the accident occurred at was high altitude desert (my recollection is around 5000 feet - can't remember which field altitudes exactly). Oscillation is really nasty - if you don't calm it down before you power up for take-off, it'll pull you over and be a bad crash - which is what happened to him.

[woodyking]

I've been wanting to try one, but so far haven't had the need for a chute. I have had a chute go to one side on kiteup, usually the downwind side, but with a little steering input they always come back to center. I think of oscillation being a frantic side to side thing, and I've never had that.
Do you ever taxi with the Chiron up, like back to the hanger? Can it handle some crosswind if you steer the chute against it? The field I use has three runways, yet the wind never seems to agree exactly, but I'm usually able to take off from in front of my hanger and taxi with the chute up to the center and turn into whichever runway goes most into the wind. I'm talking about a low speed taxi without enough power to leave the ground, and steering the chute as needed to keep it overhead. Now it will swing out to outside when turning sharp, sometimes getting near the ground, but comes right back up to center as soon as the turn is complete. I've had a Quantum 500, a Sunriser with and without stiffeners, couple of Paraplane originals, and a Hybrid, and they all seemed very controllable as long as you didn't give them enough power to leave the ground, you could steer them well.
I'd hate to have to set up directly into the wind everytime and not be able to taxi back to the hanger. Is the Chiron so sensitive that it's hard to find power that won't lift you yet keep the chute up?
I appreciate your thoughts and experience, as there's no one around here flying one to watch. I'd love to have the lift, speed, and lower engine rpm that they offer, and if I do get one, it's going on a Phoenix with the Zenoah engine, it could use the extra climb and it's such a sweet sounding motor at it's lower rpms anyway. It's a 240 lb plane, so the smaller elip would probably work super. Thanks, Woody

[Grubby]

The Chiron can taxi well - I just don't like to do it since it's way to easy to have a gust take you over (been there, done that). Chiron actually stears well on the ground, again, just my option that I don't like taxiing unless it's dead calm and/or you're going directly into the wind.

The oscillation thing is normal - seen it a lot. Usually caused by chute coming up a bit to the side and stearing which then gets the chute going back and forth, side to side. Like the old pendulum thing - leave it alone, add a bit of power and it'll usually settle down nicely. I've seen guys give it power and go for it - many, many two or one wheel take-offs.

I've taken off with quartering winds - again, not a problem since it'll jump up quickly. Problem with anything not directly into the wind is simply that since I've rolled once and it happened so quick, I just don't go trust it anymore.

I rolled at a Sixchuter event a couple years ago - Chiron chute. I had a "student" and a squall came through with winds going every which way. I got down on the ground, safe, killed the engine and started bringing the chute down. Wind switched 90 degrees and you could feel the chute tighten back up - and over we went. Very quick, very good "training" on not messing with squirly winds. Nothing hurt but my pride and the strobe.

The Chiron - and the other elipticals - handle just like the squares, just with quicker response and less pilot input required. I can stear without using the foot pegs at all just by leaning side to side. Hard turn with a rectangular takes full out leg push - hard turn with the Chiron takes about 6-12 inches and over you go!

[ZipItyDoDa]

The small amount of time I have with an elliptical chute (ThunderBolt) I can say that the steering lines are very touchy too. The second time I mounted a ThunderBolt on my machine I adjusted the lines too quickly and got one just a hair too tight. Very bad oscillations on takeoff. (And I refuse to do one wheel takeoffs, so I had a heck of a time!)
So watch your steering lines.
As Grubby has said, they are more sensitive than the squares!

Ed

PS I hope to put Grubby's takeoff tips to use yet this year. Thanks for them!
(Just one question, do you have compound steering Grubby??)
:D

[Grubby]

Yup...flying a Buckeye DM - comes that way. What's different is that the compound steering on the normal Buckeye goes from the outside of the steering bar to the rear axle. Mine goes from the outside of the steering bar to a pulley/cleat combo directly under the pilot seat - then back to the rear axle. Pulley/cleat combo lets me adjust inflight based on the drift, heavy passenger, etc. - keeps my right leg from getting toooooo strong! :o

[ZipItyDoDa]

Moved My Replys to Takeoff & Landings Thread

Ed

[mignazito]

What I am finding with the two different models of elliptical I am flying now (ASAP Thunderbolt and another new brand NOT a Chiron) is that uneven steering trim or input can make for very exciting takeoffs. I am finding that a VERY careful even "dead neutral" rigging helps tremendously. In addition I find that holding flare that is not absolutely even on into takeoff can make matters far worse. What I do is reduce power ever so slightly as the chute kites up and after adding a touch of flare as it accelerates, I then release the flare slowly but smoothly, increase power and take off with no flare. Smooth as silk every time. You must be VERY careful however. Reduce power only enough to delay or lenghten takeoff as a large power reduction will set off a bout of the "sways". "Dumping" the flare is not too hot either. It takes smooth piloting, but smooth flight always does.

Marty

[Grubby]

That's exactly why I don't like taxing the Chiron - since it's reaction time is quick, any uneven or abrupt steering is magnified and you can get in trouble very, very quickly. Unless there's something abnormal going on - I don't use the steering bars at all on takeoff. Lay the chute out inverted - start rolling forward and as the lines begin to tighten - keep increasing power steadily and up, up and away. (Not the hard, full-throttle take-off I used to do - just a nice, steady power up to lift-off.)

Any chute can oscillate - the elipticals just do it quicker since they want to fly and cut through the air cleaner.

[mignazito]

Though there is some tendency for the ellips to sway more (amplitude) when they do sway as well with a higher frequency, the real problem has to do with the airspeed at which this occurs. You are right, any PPC wing can oscillate. Big draggy rectangular wings are not only more stable (non reactive) but they "fly" at lower airspeeds as well. It is simply easier to keep them up while taxiing because of the lower pilot workload associated with the low taxi speeds. If you make an effort to remember to keep your airspeed up while taxiing your ellip, you will find it does so just fine with few problems.

To get a better feel for this, practice a lot of touch and go landings. Experiment with taxi airspeeds and see where the lower limits are. An ASI helps a lot with this. I have mine marked with blue tape to demark the "safe" speed range for taxiing. Great for instructing students BTW. I also have one setup for rectangulars that I clamp onto a students plane.

Marty

[EYEONTHESKY]

I just spent an hour on a reply and all was lost.
Lets try this.

[EYEONTHESKY]

This is my take on the Chiron 340 Parafoil.

I bought a Destiny XLT a few years ago that was advertised with a Chiron “High Performance” chute. As I had never seen, let alone flown a PPC before, I thought the more performance, the better.
After being high bidder and driving a round trip of 12 hours, I had a real clean low hour PPC in my back yard. I drove it around without the chute for a while and figured that I could get this thing in the air. How hard could it be?
The next day I trailered the machine to a friend’s field. He had a PPC with a square chute years ago, but had not flown one in a decade or so. An ex airline pilot with every rating in the book, this guy can fly anything.
He got the chute to kite but it was very unstable. I quickly realized I was delusional in thinking I was going to fly this thing with no training.
My friend and I both agreed that finding someone fami**** with this chute was a good idea before my latest investment was bent and broken before ever getting airborne.

I found the right guy. An AFI with a lot of hours and a Chiron attached to his machine. A Destiny, just like mine, only with a 582 (mine has a 503).
He had taught a lot of students, but never with a Chiron. We talked about strapping one of his old squares on my plane, but in the end decided on leaving my wing on.
It turns out that the lines were rigged wrong on one side, thus the erratic kiting I had witnessed when my airline friend tried to fly it.
After properly rigging the lines my new instructor had the machine in the air. It flew beautifully. That is until I got in the front seat. I thought it was impossible!
After about 6 disappointing hours, the “Chiron Feel” started to come to me. I had flown stunt kites and parafoils for years, just not one this big. Or one I could ride with. The techniques are the same. Gentle controlled inputs at just the right time.
I had a love-hate thing with the Chiron at first. I loved the way it turned, flared, flew and landed, but I hated the take offs. That was until I tried a more subtle take off approach. I had flown some Thunderbolts (great chutes) and some squares. I didn’t like the squares after flying the ellipticals because they don’t turn or flare and they are slow. I was using the full throttle fast method that works for most chutes. Wrong for the Chiron. Too much prop blast initiates an oscillation that stays with the chute even when it gets over head.
Instead, you need to power up slowly at first to fully inflate the chute and let it get stabilized before you bring it over the top. Once it’s out of the prop blast and everything is tight, I go full power. With the right conditions, you launch from the ground in a very short distance.
A little cross wind can be controlled with peddle input. Not too much though, you can over correct and mess it all up. Some flare can be added to get off the ground at a slower speed if desired. I flare on take off from rough fields to break the ground friction faster. This is especially helpful with the limited power of the 503.
I practice a lot of power off landings. The Chiron is perfect for this. The chute has so much stored energy that can be used when landing that you can turn your horizontal speed into lift with the flare available. The chute can lift the machine at max gross weight back up into the air. You have to watch that you don’t over do it. You can slow way down just before the tires touch the ground and land as smooth as silk.
Flying close to the ground is also fun using the flare instead of just the throttle. The flare reacts faster that the throttle so between the two you can just skim the ground with a lot of control.

Any way, after figuring out what the chute likes, it gives me what I like. Flight control and maneuverability that you can’t get with a big square chute.
As far as I’m concerned the Chiron is the best handling, most responsive, tightest turning and strongest wing on the PPC market today.
No more love-hate here, it was just a matter of getting used to the handling characteristics of the Chiron. I hope those that are thinking about trying an elliptical have found this useful. Thanks and Keep your Eye on the Sky.