Powrachute Extravaganza 2007

[lockdoc600]

Hey all!

It is that time of year again for the annual Powrachute Extravaganza! This year it is going to be held in Wisconsin at Marks Park and Airfield. The event is open to all brands of powered parachutes and pilots and the event will run from Thursday through Sunday. The public events including introductory flights will be Friday and Saturday (weather permitting of course). There will be some DAR's on hand to do inspections and offer suggestions. There will also be helicopter rides and RC flying demonstrations by a local club (these guys are good!!). And don't forget about the free ppc to be given away again this year to a lucky pilot!

Here is a flyer on the event: http://www.powrachute.com/ExtravaganzaFlyer.pdf

If you don't have plans this coming weekend.....the 13-16th.....then come on out to www.marksparkandairfield.com and have a good time. Food vendors and ppc products on site. Camping is cheap and a good time will be had by all!

[Dennis Bowers]

....have not seen or heard one report on this years Extravaqanza. From those who attended, how was the turnout?, the weather, the facilities, the vendors, the overall atmosphere, etc, etc, DB

[mignazito]

The weather was not that good. Cold and windy, though there were some breaks that allowed some flying. By Extravaganza past standards turnout was light with about 75 registered pilots attending, but the weather was poor which probably discouraged many.

Other than Craig Steffen and myself, there were no official "vendors" of PPC stuff there. There was a food caterer that had a nice selection of quisine. The local club had a number of items on display for sale and of course Powrachute had a nice display of thier offerings.

We had a "pulloff" of machines with various engines and props. Best of show was a Powrachute 912ULS Airwolf at 503 lbs static with a WD 68" THREE BLADE. I suspect a WD5 would have done much better. A PF 65"-5 model F pulled 490.

Marty

[Dennis Bowers]

At one time, I was under the impression that the Great Lakes area, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin, Illinois, et al, was probably more saturated with PPC enthusiasts than just about any other place in the country. Not that it was a correct impression. But given the number of manufacturers that were once in that region, it appeared the two went hand- in-hand. For an event of that significance to only garner 75 or so registered PPC pilots in that area, when only a few short years ago you would see 150-200 planes registered in an out-of-the-way place like Columbus, Kansas can only reflect a decline in intrest for PPCing for whatever reason. I can only say I'm saddened to see it and I don't believe we'll see the return of the good 'ol days when a PPC gathering was really an event. DB

[Joe Hines]

Dennis,
I have been going to Sun-N-Fun for years. In 2004 I flew for Phoenix and on Saturday evening I had the great pleasure of sharing the pattern with 56 other parachutes! There were chutes everywhere, all colors, shapes and sizes. There were thousands of spectators watching with great delight.

This year only 4 PPC’s flew, and all were gone by Saturday morning. It is past sad, to the point of being disgusting.

[AirSportAdventures]

Dennis,
I have been going to Sun-N-Fun for years. In 2004 I flew for Phoenix and on Saturday evening I had the great pleasure of sharing the pattern with 56 other parachutes! There were chutes everywhere, all colors, shapes and sizes. There were thousands of spectators watching with great delight.

This year only 4 PPC’s flew, and all were gone by Saturday morning. It is past sad, to the point of being disgusting.
Joe,

I remember when the skies at Sun & Fun were full of chutes. I think we will return to those days in the future. But I have a question for you; What good do you see happing in our sport?

[indoruwet]

From what I hear, The Southern Utah Color Chute Out, was still a success, although there were less participants.
So we are still around ... I guess, give it some time and it will get better.

[Joe Hines]

The new developments on FAR 103 legal singles are exciting.

[AirSportAdventures]

The new 4 stroke engines will bring excitement to the ultralight world. They'll be more reliable and affordable. The Dragon Fly is the only one I know of right now. Hopefully, Buckeye will get their act together and keep their delivery promises. I've spoke with a number of folks who like their new single seat, but tell me they will not do business with them. Their unfortunate history will follow them until they establish a new reputation for good service.

[mignazito]

A habitual naysaying wet blanket asks: "What good do you see happening in our sport". I block this guys posts since they are primarily negative and useless, but they sneak thru in other peoples posts now and then. I'll elaborate as to what my view is since a personnal view was requested.

The biggest thing I personnaly see as hopefully resulting from SP is the clearing from the skys of some of the worst prepared, least well informed pilots with bad attitudes. Most of them won't be able to pass the tests though some will sneak thru. Good riddance IMHO. Remember that you asked.

Is that elaborate enough?

Marty

[Dennis Bowers]

However Marty, I can recall on several occassions seeing over 80 or more PPCs in the air at Columbus. Perhaps a few of those folk were poor pilots or inconciderate of other people and property. But SP also cleared the sky of most of the remaining consciensious pilots who flew PPCs for recreation and the low cost PPCing afforded them, leaving only a small percentage of us who flew 'pre-SP'. I feel bad for those people who enjoyed the activity and were responsible who no longer want to participate. Leaving fewer of us who enjoyed there comeradery. I don't recall any PPC accidents making the national news before SP. Not to say there weren't some idiots among us. But the safety of the activity speaks volumes. I don't think the guy that wanted to enjoy a spin around a farm field to relax and have fun once in a while, who was responsible, needed the formalities of SP to make him/her any more consciensious. I think that is who the majority of PPC enthusiasts were. I'm quite confident in saying we will never see the level of activity in this pasttime that we saw 4 or 5 years ago. DB

[lockdoc600]

If you couple high fuel prices with the remaining pilots struggling to keep their everyday jobs......with trying to get into compliance with SP....with...with...etc..(I think you get my drift)..it does not surprise me one bit that the turnout at the flyin events is and has been down this past year. I DO think however that given enough time to comply and get all the inspections & tests done...I feel that this sport will rebound once again.

A lot of pilots did not attend this years Powrachute Extravaganza simply because of the location in the north. A lot of the folks that came when it was held in Kansas were from Texas, Utah, Missourri, La., Kansas etc. and with the event so far north they simply chose not to spend the money on fuel to get there. I know of one group of guys that talked about getting together and carpooling without their ppc's just to attend....but how much fun would that be to be there without your ppc to fly during the times when you could.

I personnally got in a lot of flight time while in Wisconsin this year....but I fly a heavy bird and it is more stable with the winds than the lighter ppc's. I flew on three days that I was there. With the the past Extravaganza events Powrachute ran the into flights as well as other activities to subsidize the event a little bit. This year the host park was in control of most everything fundraising and it costs a lot to put on a show like this and give away a new PPC etc. As one of the intro flight pilots I can say that I was less than excited when I was told that the park got 50% of each flight even though it was my ppc and fuel doing all the flying. We will discuss that FIRST next time or won't fly intros! I wrote all of that to say this......my gut tells me that from the way things went this year we might look for Powrachute to move back to a more centrally located flight park. This is just MY gut feeling tho and I don't know what their thoughts are yet. I believe such a move would allow more fellow ppc'ers to attend and the event could grow once again.

I know that I am doing what I have to so that I may continue to fly and stay legal. I hope that with hunting, work, hunting,and family....oh and did I say hunting...that I might get the final step done and get my airworthiness paperwork done and sent in!

[mignazito]

It also might have been instructive to have actually been there as I was.

It appears attendance was restricted to registered aircraft or at least all but the few 103s were N numbered and the application form asked for registration numbers.

It was also very cold and windy with some rain and even a little SNOW and forecasts were gloomy.

Some regulars were still there including Even Green from California.

The change of location may have been a factor too.

Even at that 75-80 aircraft is not a small event for PPCs by any comparison.

Marty

[AirSportAdventures]

<snip> A habitual naysaying wet blanket asks: "What good do you see happening in our sport". I block this guys posts since they are primarily negative and useless, but they sneak thru in other peoples posts now and then. <snip> Marty

Marty

I'm the guilty party. I replied to his post attempting to solicit something postive, anything postive. I received a neutral responsed which is an improvement. I haven't blocked anyone yet, but I can see it has it's merits.

[kilowatt]

I have been to a few fly-ins around Kansas, including a couple of Extravaganzas and some small regional and local stuff. I have also been to a couple Airventure's over the years and as you all know, I was a PPsel prior to getting into the PPC thing.

One thing that became apparent to me early on was that quite a few of the BFI’s were very light in basic aeronautical knowledge and true aeronautical experience. It was obvious to me that they were benefactors of the inherent stability and flight characteristics of the PPC. They were also having a great deal of fun.

As an advocate of grass-roots aviation, personal freedom and self-responsibility, I accepted the sport for what it was and appreciated the opportunity to view the earth from another, less traveled perspective.

However, one distressing issue remained for me, the activity of carrying a passenger.

The good of Sport Pilot, for me, is the increased knowledge, training, proficiency, situational awareness, improved safety and self-accountability maintained through adherence of regulations with regard to carrying passengers. I am convinced that we are all better qualified for the responsibility of sharing the great experience of aviation with another human being as the result of Sport Pilot.

Regards,

Kilowatt

[AirSportAdventures]

Kilowatt

You have just hit the nail on the head and why Sport Pilot is needed. For the last three years, this issue has been discussed repeatedly with pilots falling into two camps, either for or against. From a knowledge perspective it is clearly needed. However, what everyone seem to agree about is the need for an extention of the exemption and deadline for aircraft registation and inspection. Jim S. made a very compelling argument for consideration. Lets hope we get it.

[kilowatt]

Micheal,

I haven't taken the time to read Jim's request for an extension, but agree wholeheartedly that the FAA was not prepared in the least for the implementation of the Sport Pilot transition period.

One of the most frequent reasons I have discussed with folks close to the FAA is that the FAA had expected that a great deal more of the BFI's were going to transition to the CFI role and assist with the training. I personally believe this was a valid expectation, however I was not surprised by the result.

On the other hand, this lack of commitment by the BFI's also validated the very fear of the FAA; that a lack of adequate training and teaching commitment existed within the exemption holders and BFI's (me included).

I hope the transition period is extended. I hope that the pilots of two place PPC's realize and capitalize on the extension to increase the quality of their training and aviation experience.

I realize from reading these boards, from your information, Marty's advice and the others opinions that we are ALL becoming better, safer pilots.

Regards,

Kilowatt

[Limegreen]

You are so right with the FAA expecting more BFIs to continue on as CFIs. Well after joining 2-2-07 I never took the time to post. I guess I felt you don't learn anyinthing when you are the one doing the talking. It was not easy, but can now ask more BFIs to try and make the Jan 31 deadline to become CFI. I did and now will be part of the solution, not the problem. My first two students start next Monday and both are going on with SP not 103.

[mignazito]

Actually the BFI/CFI deadline is NOT Jan 31, 2008. Your UL experience will still count after that. You can easily get your SP after that date as you can your CFI. It will just be a little more work to get it done. The real drop dead deadline is the aircraft registration. I think it is more of a problem on the part of the community than the FAA in this regard. At least here in our area. We have 3 DARs within and hour to 1-1/2 hours drive from me and none of them are busy. I have run 3 PPCs thru one near me. I just called and told him I was coming. When I got there I was the only one there. If "the FAA was ill prepared" one would expect a line a mile long and scheduling problems.

The comment I hear from many is that if there is an extention, they will just fly till that ends and drop out. One can make an arguement about this issue, but we did have 3 years to get it done and a number of us did get it done with no crowds or delays to battle on the way.

How many are "stuck" because they could not find a DAR? There may be a few, but I find this arguement to be a red herring.

Since I already got it all done, I suppose an extension does not metter to me. If it will really help and they do it, fine. I would be curious to see what happens if they do. A few more jump in? Many? Hardly any more? INteresting question.

Marty

[AirSportAdventures]

For many months, I took the position that it is the PPC communities' fault for not registering and getting sport pilot training. I got my sport pilot and vehicle registration very easily - the DEP and DAR came to me. Eventually, a SPIE moved just two hours away and I took my CFI practical. Many others pilots have reported similar good access.

However, within the last 18 months, it has become apparent that some of the FAA's assumptions were off, particularly about the number of BFIs to CFIs as Kilowatt mentioned. For the first 18 months, DPEs & DARs trickled out of Oklahoma City at a rate that could not possibly service the known number of pilots & vehicles. Even at today's numbers, it is still too little too late.

I agree with Marty that there are a certain number of pilots who do not intend to become a sport pilot and plan to fly their exempt vehicles after the deadline. One of my students, in the middle of training this year, advised me he was not going to complete his training or register his PPC. Money and access was not the issue for him, it was simply the hassle of test taking and the inspection. He owns plenty land out in the country and said he would fly on his own property. I warned him of the risks of illegal flying which did not pursuade him.

The problem I am struggling with is those pilot/owners who want to do the right thing but do not have reasonable access to CFIs and DARs. I have read many stories on this forum and others that in order to get their machines inspected, they would have to drive hundreds of miles to the nearest DAR or FAA office for inspection. If it failed, and some do, they would have to repeat the process over again. Some pilots do not have the time and resources and for this reason, I'm an advocate for an extention of the deadline for conversion to ELSA. There are arguments on both sides of this issue. However, I would like to see the problem resolved in favor of the survival of our industry and sport.

[indoruwet]

the survival of our industry and sport.
Michael .... lighten up kiddo !

It (the sport) will survive ...
- regardless of those who do not want their units registered .
- regardless of those who will continue to fly *illegal*.
- regardless of those who will not produce/manufacture any more units.


- Accept people for what they are, unless you think you are better than they are, overall.
- Do not judge. State facts.
- Illegal ? Is everything you do legal ?
- Industry is all about competition, they will adapt, and if not, no loss, the end will be better.

*If the government makes me do something*,
and I agreed with it (I did not fight it when it became *law*),
then support me, and treat me fair.
Privatize ? OK with me, but *regulate it*, cap the cost connected with it.
Make sure the people *you authorize* to do it, know what they are doing ...
(hmm... do not get me started on that)
In the end, what needed to be done, was the wish of the government,
so oversee it and make sure it runs well.

The meaning of *To Govern*, in the correct sense of what it should mean,
has somewhere been lost, since *greed* is now a good part of it.
If *regulation* is something you do not like, and I do not like regulation in certain cases,
then make sure that the government gets out of that sector altogether.
In my case, the congressman in my neighborhood is probably getting tired of getting my letters.

[Joe Hines]

Michael,
You have finally seen my side, thank you! As I stated in some other thread, I would grudgingly pony up the fees for all Sport Pilot including adding a CFI to it, IF it were able to be done at least within my state. It is not at this time, or likely any time soon, so it’s 103 for me. I think that is the only thing I can do to keep the sport alive until something else changes.

[AirSportAdventures]

Michael,
You have finally seen my side, thank you! As I stated in some other thread, I would grudgingly pony up the fees for all Sport Pilot including adding a CFI to it, IF it were able to be done at least within my state. It is not at this time, or likely any time soon, so it’s 103 for me. I think that is the only thing I can do to keep the sport alive until something else changes.

Joe,

I see all sides of this situation and have to admit many pilot/owners, intended to benefit from the new rule, will not. On the other hand, as mentioned in my last post many pilot have access to CFIs, DEPs and DARs but do not want to be bothered with the process. The fact is no one really knows what the percentages are. What we do know is the finanical impact on the sport if the deadline isn't extended. If you read Jim Stephenson's appeal for an extension, it's obvious the sport needs this help. The LSA industry should benefit from sport pilot, not be harmed. Setting the blame game aside, their is a lot to lose if the deadline is not granted. And the blame is shared with both our pilot community and the FAA.

[AirSportAdventures]

<snip> Michael .... lighten up kiddo ! It (the sport) will survive ...
- regardless of those who do not want their units registered .
- regardless of those who will continue to fly *illegal*.
- regardless of those who will not produce/manufacture any more units.
- Accept people for what they are, unless you think you are better than they are, overall.
- Do not judge. State facts <snip>.

Indoruwet

I'm not sure I understand every point you're trying to make in your post, but I can agree with some of the human factors above. ie; don't judge, accept people for who they are, state facts and so forth. You sound passionate about the sport and optimistic. I'm optimistic too and look forward to a rebounding PPC industry. I look forward to the days when PPCs fill the skies once more at Sun & Fun and other fly-ins around the country. And I look forward to forum discussions being dominated by all the fun we're having.

[indoruwet]

I'm not sure I understand every point you're trying to make in your post,
Do not loose sleep over this .... you may not be only one ...
You sound passionate about the sport and optimistic.
I am and I live in the USA, where we get up after we fall down.
Bad things happen to us here and amazingly we make jokes about it.
In the mean time we get back on our feet and sometimes start all over again.

Flying used to be a job (NAVY) and I did it because I made a commitment to do the best I can.
Now I can do it for fun, and I never had that much fun before.

I challenge anybody to compare, the cost of
Acquiring a good PPC.
Maintaining her.
Flying her for a couple of hours a week all year long, if you are a diehard and a half !!
to for instance
Skiing or Any other hobby.

[mignazito]

Actually a friend of mine summed it up for me the other day. He owns a Mooney and has flown regularly for well over 40 year. I was telling him how I figure it costs me about $45/hr to fly my PPCs. When I asked him what he figured it costs to fly his Mooney he replied "I don't even want to know".

If you love it and can afford it, cost is not really an issue.

Marty

[AirSportAdventures]

<snip> I challenge anybody to compare, the cost of
Acquiring a good PPC. Maintaining her.<snip>
Indoruwet
You won't have to challenge anyone on this forum about PPC cost vs anything else - we are all believers. You can also include the lowest training cost of any other LSA.

Marty,
How did you come up with $45.00 an hour for your flying cost and for which engine, chute and PPC combo?

[mignazito]

Flying time per year 60 hours avg last 2 years

Hanger rent $810/yr $13.50/hr
Fuel use avg 3 gph @ $4.30/gal (100LL) $12.90/hr
Oil, plugs, gear lube est $2/hr
Overhaul, decarb reserve $7/hr
Misc maintenance est $2/hr
Depreciation $10/hr ($3000/300hrs, prehaps low here?)

Total $42.40 Say $45?

Granted the 100LL is a bit more on the order of $3/hr, but there are other costs involved in hauling and storing mogas that I have chosen to avoid as well as the safety and convenience of 100LL from the gas truck whenever I need it. Besides, it seems to run better on the 100LL and 100LL is more stable and a better product.

If you think your storage costs are free, guess again. Whatever you store it in has some cost associated with it. e.g. A garage that you pay for or have paid for and might use to store your car. Perhaps less than the hanger rent, perhaps even more, but there are great conveniences attached to the hanger making it worth the cost to me. e.g. Access to 400 acres of airport, fuel, roll out and fly, FBO supply of nuts and bolts for sale, etc.

Others may do it for less, but how much less? Not that it isn't worth every penny. Much like my friend with the Mooney, we ussually do not want to know. I don't mind what it costs and just like to have some idea of what it does actually cost. In the event that I do have to make cuts, I at leats have a handle to grasp.

Sit down some time and figure it out. Most of us seldom know what things like cars, boats, motorcyles or even our houses actually cost us to operate. It's often an interesting experience to find out. Not that we would give up our flying when we know what it costs us. Or we can opt to do like my friend with the Mooney and simply choose not to know. Though I suspect he does know and is in denial.

Marty

[AirSportAdventures]

The hanger rental caused the hourly cost to be a little higher, but otherwise it's a good estimate. When you factor in depreciation, you get an actual cost. Where did you factor in parachute replacement? And why to you run on 100LL?

[mignazito]

Wing replacement? Good point. I'm a dealer often trading them and did not think about that. Assume a 5 year life or 300 hours. At $1800 to $2600 for a new one depending on type that's $6 to almost $9/hr for new wing reserve.

So now I'm up to $50/hr or more.

Obviously everyone's costs will vary depending on assumptions and thier situation. It is instructive to think about it and see what it is however. Such things are generally far more than most people think till they dig into it. e.g. Most people I tlak to have no idea what it cost to operate thier car, home etc.

Martry

[jdeer]

How would you calulate the hourly cost of being married? Don't bother figuring this one out, don't want to know!!!

[indoruwet]

So now I'm up to $50/hr or more.
I was using slightly different values but similar parameters, and came up with slightly less then $38.00/hour.

I used to ski a lot and I still think I like a PPC better then freezing my butt off and attending that dumb fashion show (what I thought skiing was).

[mignazito]

Indoruwet:

Mind sharing your figures with us? One item even I was not realistic about was depreciation. From ads I see for used PPCs, I think I have figured low.

As I have said, in spite of the cost I do not plan to give it up just yet. As long as my health allows and I have the money, I'll stay with it.

Cost of marriage. Don't ask, don't tell. I'm on my second wife though we have been together 38 years. The first lasted only 2 years. She hated the airplanes, hated the fact that I liked them and resented my interest in them. My current wife used to fly with me in the old days. Now she tolerates my interest from a distance.

Marty