Surry, VA takeoff crash

[scottf]

FAA Preliminary data (link (http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/M_0909_N.txt))



************************************************** ******************************
** Report created 9/19/2008 Record 1 **
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IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 723JH Make/Model: EXP Description: AIRFRAMES USA-1B POWERED PARACHUTE
Date: 09/07/2008 Time: 1830

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: SURRY State: VA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
POWERED PARACHUTE ON TAKEOFF, EXPERIENCED IMPROPER INFLATION OF CHUTE AND
SPUN DOWNWARD, LANDED HARD AND FLIPPED, SURRY, VA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED

OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Take-off Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: RICHMOND, VA (EA21) Entry date: 09/09/2008

[AirSportAdventures]

It's usually hard to tell the cause from the preliminary accident report, but this one sounds like a 'line-over' condition of the wing because the PPC "spun downward".

[scottf]

Yeah, that was my thought as well. Either way, probably safe to say there was not a sufficient "rolling pre-flight".

[Desert Fox]

What do you mean exactly by line over? Was the chute likely turned one rotation putting a twist in each set of lines?

[texas_tl]

What do you mean exactly by line over? Was the chute likely turned one rotation putting a twist in each set of lines?

It means that one (or more) of your lines are over your chute rather than below it.

I've had this happen to me 2 times before and it was noticed during the preflight roll on both instances. One of those, pumping the steering caused the line to get back into place and all was well. The other one resulted in an aborted takeoff.

The third time it almost happened, I saw it happen while I was warming up and ever since I've adjusted my layout to prevent it. The breeze had been picking up the edges of my chute and the one line managed to go under the edge.

[mignazito]

If you use the modified accordian layout, a line over is almost impossible to go unnoticed and unlikely to occur at all. Didn't I show you that layout Travis?

[Boback]

It means that one (or more) of your lines are over your chute rather than below it.

I've had this happen to me 2 times before and it was noticed during the preflight roll on both instances. One of those, pumping the steering caused the line to get back into place and all was well. The other one resulted in an aborted takeoff.

The third time it almost happened, I saw it happen while I was warming up and ever since I've adjusted my layout to prevent it. The breeze had been picking up the edges of my chute and the one line managed to go under the edge.

I like the accordian method as I can keep my lines with a minimum amount of slack which helps with preventing a line over. I had a line over a couple of times in skydiving and when it starts to spin, you have to get the line back quick or go to your reserve. Fortunately in both instances a deep stall of the parachute resolved the line over. I don't recommend a deep stall in a PPC as one your are too close to the ground to recover and two, stalls in general are not recommended in a PPC.

[texas_tl]

If you use the modified accordian layout, a line over is almost impossible to go unnoticed and unlikely to occur at all. Didn't I show you that layout Travis?


Yes, but honestly everything was so new to me at the time that I wasn't able to retain the info long enough to try it on my own. Now that I'm aware of that one line that always goes over, I adjust my layout to prevent it.

[mignazito]

If there is enough interest, I can make a DVD of my layout video detailing the modified accordian layout. Though nothing in this life is certain, this layout eliminates a lot of layout realated troubles as well as danger.

[tonyray]

I use the inverted layout, but there is no excuse for leaving the ground with a line-over condition if a proper pre-flight is done. :D

[Desert Fox]

I prefer the acordian layout but must say I have never tried the inverted. I can see how someone could get the leading edge line wraped around the end of the shoot with the acordian. Would be easy to do for a beginner which I am. It is probably impossible to do in the inverted layout? My CFI has done a good job of shyowing me the things to avoid. But it would never hurt to watch someone else lay a chute out as well Marty with just a quick clip.

[Rich K]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If there is enough interest, I can make a DVD of my layout video detailing the modified accordian layout. Though nothing in this life is certain, this layout eliminates a lot of layout realated troubles as well as danger."

I'd like to see you make a DVD of the system you use.
I read your artical and like the idea.

Rich K

[skydiver31738]

What do you mean exactly by line over? Was the chute likely turned one rotation putting a twist in each set of lines?

I have a few pic of a skydiver landing a lineover (bow tie)


ABORT the takeoff!!! even if can control the conopy........

A lineover impairs a canopy's flight characteristics, and it very much has the potential to shift, worsen, or even severely damage the canopy over the course of a flight, especially during maneuvers such as turning or flaring; The friction from the lines can even cut the conopy in HALF!!!!

Jim Dees

[jumper]

I was taught the inverted initially. The accordian layout is alot better IMO. Makes laying out the lines alot cleaner too. I would like to see how others do it. Marty, can you do one on the SkyBolt? Also, as someone else said, come off the throttle once inflated and inspect your chute before commiting to takeoff.

[ligpd1030]

Marty, if you do make the DVD of your layout then put me down for one. Sounds like a good idea to me.

[AirSportAdventures]

There are three layout methods. 1.The inverted (and modifed inverted). 2. Accordian method (Marty's favorite) 3. Half fold. This is the quickest layout method and for low wind conditions. Marty, if you create a DVD you might as well include all methods including the advantages and disadvantages of each.

[CentralFLA]

Marty, I know you usually have Michael on your "ignore" list, but his post is worth your reading. I too would like to see you do a video of the layouts. I've only ever seen the inverted, which has worked well for me.
Jay
-------
There are three layout methods. 1.The inverted (and modifed inverted). 2. Accordian method (Marty's favorite) 3. Half fold. This is the quickest layout method and for low wind conditions. Marty, if you create a DVD you might as well include all methods including the advantages and disadvantages of each.
__________________
Michael D Harwood,
Private Pilot SEL, PPC Endorsed, CFI-SP

[mignazito]

The three methods listed do not include the fourth which is the modified accordian layout and which I have found superior to the others in every way. I made the video to show folks how to do what I feel is the best layout. Let others make videos to support the other methods.

I ignore Micheal just because of this kind of bullfeathers. Let him make his own video. I've already made mine.

I have tried them all and the modified accordian seems to suit me best. It takes more work than most seem willing to invest, but I think the effort is worth it.

[MikeM]

Marty, if you do make the DVD of your layout then put me down for one. Sounds like a good idea to me.

Ditto ^......

[kilowatt]

Honestly, folks, any experienced PPC pilot or CFI should be able to show you each of these layouts. There's really no big secrets to chute layout methods, but throttle settings during the take off roll are more where the mastery lies, in my opinion. Cart and chute design also play an important role, and what may work best for one; may not be the best or another combination.

I've tried them all and the inverted method works for me.

One of the best experiences I recommend to pilots is to attend a fly-in in their area. Even if you don't participate (fly), you can gain valuable knowledge by watching and visiting with the folks.

Kilowatt

[AirSportAdventures]

Not every experienced pilot knows all three layout methods. Some only know the method they learned during training and there is nothing wrong with that. Killowatt is right that throttle technique is just as important as the layout method you choose. If Marty choose to produce a video on chute layout, it could also include the following areas. A comprehensive video (regardless of who produces it) would be a great training tool for CFIs or any pilot. This could be recorded in a 45-minute video.

1. Packing and unpacking method (there are a many of these, but I would choose the two most popular)
2. Proper inspection of the risers, steering lines and suspension lines during set up
3. How to avoid and untangle twisted risers
4. How to identify improper rigging (good information if you fly someone else's machine)
5. How to set up on paved surfaces, rough dirt surface and "cow pasture" rough
6. Proper layout of all three methods (Someone tell Marty that a modified accordion is still an accordion)
8. Determining takeoff distance and establishing an abort point. (Not understanding this principle this is where many accidents occur even with a good chute)
9. Advantages and disadvantages of each layout method
10. Setting up elliptical and rectangle wings
11. Determining which method to use based on field conditions and wind.
12. Proper throttle technique for each method and wind conditions
13. Rolling prefight inspection technique
14. Quickly identifying problems during chute rotation and MAKING THE ABORT DECISION.
15. How to handle a lockout, lazy chute, end-cell opening delays
17. Common mistakes made in setting up any method
18. Extending the life of your parachute with proper care and maintenance.

I teach this stuff all the time, but there may be things I missed since this is from memory. If there is a topic you think should be included, quote this post and add your comments since I'm on Marty's ignore list.

[dmeender]

throttle control on roll out is not only a must for chute inspection, but also an almost fool proof method to prevent roll over.

[texas_tl]

throttle control on roll out is not only a must for chute inspection, but also an almost fool proof method to prevent roll over.


Along these lines...How do you all control your throttle for your roll out?

Our instructor taught us to go to about 3/4 power, roll a few ft or so which is right before the chute starts to rise, go to idle for just a sec to let the chute pop past the prop and then go back to enough power to roll without climbing for your rolling preflight.

Now, the guys I fly with that were trained elsewhere just power up and keep the power going until their chute is overhead and they go.

The idea behind the power, idle, power method is that it reduces the chances of the chute getting locked out in the prop blast which by using this method I have never had happen.

[flynlow]

I'm intersted in this also. I'm one of the guys Travis is talking about that keeps the throttle in. I go to about 3/4 throttle (depending on the wind), the wing comes nicely, I do a quick line check, and then go full throttle. I've seen several guys pull the power back and the wing looks like it goes a little soft.

I also saw two guys pull the power back on Saturday when the wind was probably about 8mph and they both almost tipped over. Both of these pilots have tipped before. Granted they were both in AFU units that in my opinion have a very high center of gravity, but if they had lifted off, they wouldn't have almost tipped.

I'm still learning, so I'm very interested to hear how everyone else does it.

Jack

Along these lines...How do you all control your throttle for your roll out?

Our instructor taught us to go to about 3/4 power, roll a few ft or so which is right before the chute starts to rise, go to idle for just a sec to let the chute pop past the prop and then go back to enough power to roll without climbing for your rolling preflight.

Now, the guys I fly with that were trained elsewhere just power up and keep the power going until their chute is overhead and they go.

The idea behind the power, idle, power method is that it reduces the chances of the chute getting locked out in the prop blast which by using this method I have never had happen.

[phil]

Along these lines...How do you all control your throttle for your roll out?

Our instructor taught us to go to about 3/4 power, roll a few ft or so which is right before the chute starts to rise, go to idle for just a sec to let the chute pop past the prop and then go back to enough power to roll without climbing for your rolling preflight.

Now, the guys I fly with that were trained elsewhere just power up and keep the power going until their chute is overhead and they go.

The idea behind the power, idle, power method is that it reduces the chances of the chute getting locked out in the prop blast which by using this method I have never had happen.


Travis,
If it has worked for you, that is the way to keep doing it.

I have seen pilots go up & then drop back, and the wing tends to wander, and IMO can lockout easier. Reducing to idle will slow your ground speed as well, which may allow the wing to unload, leaving you with little control.

It is important to have no cup in the tail, which is to say not to have your steering lines pulled in. I know on some makes of PPC, having it set this way can leave you with very little turn response using the pedals, but with cup on take off, it makes kiting much more difficult. If you have this problem, you can get some inexpensive line trimmer pulleys, that will allow you to pull in line for flight, and release for each take off to neutral. Just don't pull in so much that you get closer to stall. I attached a picture of the pulley set up I am talking about that is on my Pegasus. I hope it comes thru.

Here is what I do when training, and since I fly a Pegasus with a PD sunriser 500, that will be the standard for this discussion, but it works the same with any square on this make/model.

This is from the inverted layout. Using the accordion layout will differ slightly, which I will cover.

Inverted; After the wing is laid out, lines clear & on the cleats at the same level at the halo bars, (what the chute attaches to on a Pegasus)
we go to about 2/3rds to 3/4th power & hold, making a slight throttle back to keep the plane from flying, allow the wing to come up (you'll feel a slight jerk sometimes as it comes thru the prop wash & starts to load) once it is centered, with a LOC, and you're satisfied you have a good wing, smoothly increase to full & lift off. On the initial power up, it is the only time I bring power up fast. if you're too timid on the throttle during this process, the wing may stay back and lock out.

Accordion; I tuck the mouth under so the prop blast does not kite it prematurely. I go to full power, and as the wing is coming up into flying position, I reduce to about 2/3rds, allow it to strabilize as with the inverted, once it's good, take off.

I have seen pilots use this up & down on the throttle (full & idle) and I cringe every time I see it, because I have seen lockouts, unloading & lines get into prop, wing wanders and does things we don't want it to, and I have seen pilots trying to get it up, and eventually roll the plane, when they could have aborted sooner, which I know is a pain in the butt if you have to repack & go back to the upwind side of the field or runway, but that is better than the alternative.

[Boback]

I was taught to go full throttle and watch the chute and correct as it comes up. I have learned since then that is not the way to do it.

What I do now is I go full throttle for just a few seconds, usually less that one cart roll and slowly pull it back to about 2/3rds, sometimes to half while I watch the chute come up and correct for any non-centering. I believe you have to learn to "feel" the chute to know what is enough power to keep it properly kited and centered yet not fly while you inspect. Once the chute is centered, off to the skies!

I have seen a couple of people pull off too much power after their canopy came up and their chute sank right into the prop.

[cm8112]

Travis,

I stopped doing the idle. Going to Idle and then power works great with my Eagle, but with my Gemini it drops the chute and lose some tension. I almost damage my chute once by doing it.

What I do now is full powere until I feel the chute starts rotation, then I go down to 2/3 or 3/4 until it kites. Full power after LOC.

[phil]

I was taught to go full throttle and watch the chute and correct as it comes up. I have learned since then that is not the way to do it.

What I do now is I go full throttle for just a few seconds, usually less that one cart roll and slowly pull it back to about 2/3rds, sometimes to half while I watch the chute come up and correct for any non-centering. I believe you have to learn to "feel" the chute to know what is enough power to keep it properly kited and centered yet not fly while you inspect. Once the chute is centered, off to the skies!

I have seen a couple of people pull off too much power after their canopy came up and their chute sank right into the prop.

Bob,
You're right in that it becomes a feel thing. Do you use the inverted or stacked/accordion method?
I'll bet you have a quantum wing as well, based on who you bought from.

We've also discussed your instructor at length previously, so no need for any comment from me here. I expect that you have it dialed in.

I too have seen chutes get into props like than. Gotta keep that ground speed just right.
I have checked my GPS & with my PD solo, I seem to lift off at about 21 MPH, and I will have to look & remember next time I fly dual.

[kilowatt]

This is great stuff.

I have a friend who flies a homebuilt (similar to the AFU) with an APCO 500Hybrid. He uses the accordion method with the leading edge tucked. He felt this was his only option due to his concern about his lines getting taken into the prop using the inverted method.

He had a simply terrible time with lockout. But with time and practice, he swears he found the answer. He went from hitting full throttle (then backing off to 3/4) to just easing into the throttle steadily until the chute comes up over. No more lockouts.

Throttle manipulation is a real skill with these PPC's during this phase of flight.

Kilowatt

[Boback]

Phil,

I tried the inverted a couple of times and I was not comfortable with it and I thought the chute took longer to kite up, based on the length of runway I used before liftoff. I use the accordian method, sometimes with a tuck.

Yes, I have a quantum 550 which is probably too big for me solo. I do not like my performance when carrying a passenger and I have looked at options. I am considering replacing my gear ratio which is the lowest cost solution at this point. Many agree I got the wrong gear ratio, even my dealer (at least one of the two partners). The new ratio with my continued loss of weight (over 60 pounds since I purchased my plane), my performance is improving.

[phil]

Phil,

I tried the inverted a couple of times and I was not comfortable with it and I thought the chute took longer to kite up, based on the length of runway I used before liftoff. I use the accordian method, sometimes with a tuck.

Yes, I have a quantum 550 which is probably too big for me solo. I do not like my performance when carrying a passenger and I have looked at options. I am considering replacing my gear ratio which is the lowest cost solution at this point. Many agree I got the wrong gear ratio, even my dealer (at least one of the two partners). The new ratio with my continued loss of weight (over 60 pounds since I purchased my plane), my performance is improving.

Bob,
What gear ratio are you looking at go with?
62" or 68" prop?
Do you have a 4 blade prop?
I have a friend who has a yellow pegasus with a quantum 550.
When he was training originally, we went up in his plane, and the climb was scary slow.

We landed & got into my plane. everything was identical except I had a PD 500 wing, and we had a much better climb.
The quantum flies faster, but lifts less.

I like the quantum wings, but only if the person is lighter.
We both also know your 2 instructors hate PD & love quantum. Too bad, if they knew how to rig a PD they would have a different opinion.

I also have a student who has his own plane (a Pegasus) with a quantum 500, and we went up in that to test the climb & load capability.
Landed quickly, almost no climb.
Got into my plane again (this was recently) and had no problem, so to finish his training, I will either use my plane or move my wing over to his plane.
I also noticed when I flew the quantum 500, it took a bit longer to stabilize than my PD, using the same throttle technique.

[phil]

This is great stuff.

I have a friend who flies a homebuilt (similar to the AFU) with an APCO 500Hybrid. He uses the accordion method with the leading edge tucked. He felt this was his only option due to his concern about his lines getting taken into the prop using the inverted method.

He had a simply terrible time with lockout. But with time and practice, he swears he found the answer. He went from hitting full throttle (then backing off to 3/4) to just easing into the throttle steadily until the chute comes up over. No more lockouts.

Throttle manipulation is a real skill with these PPC's during this phase of flight.

Kilowatt


Kilowatt,
part of his problem with lockout could be he has too much tail pulled in.
Since he has safety lines on that wing, when in level flight, he can look up & see if his safety lines have slack in them. if they do, that could very well be his problem. Making them equal (neutral) is how they should be. Pulling in too much also puts you closer to a stall. I have seen some instructors rig wings with tail pulled in, and the student thinks it's right just because the instructor did it, and they wonder why they're having trouble.

I have seen many pilots at fly ins go to full power, rocket down the runway with no apparent wing control, all the while cringing, waiting to see if they abort, (they don't usually) or make it. When they don't, you hear that sickening crunch as the prop goes to pieces as the cart rolls over.

Throttle finesse is the key. I think it is at least 80% of the skill required to fly a PPC as a precise pilot. Once at altitude in level flight, there's not much to flying a PPC, but when near the ground, take offs & landings, that's where the precision is required, and throttle control is the big key.

It's also good to know how to use flare & power simultaneously. That can save your bacon when near the ground & you run into some low evel wind shear or other strange anomaly.

[dmeender]

the one thing that my instructor spent the most time on was ground throttle control. after a while this will become second nature. very few take off conditions are ever the same. the one thing to remember is we all do this for fun and I am never in a hurry, relax and make sure everything is right before you go full throttle. if you have enough runway, don't be afraid to use it. the same when landing. I have aborted many landings, or used lots of runway to make sure I am comfortable before touching down.

[texasbagpiper]

Travis,

I stopped doing the idle. Going to Idle and then power works great with my Eagle, but with my Gemini it drops the chute and lose some tension. I almost damage my chute once by doing it.

What I do now is full powere until I feel the chute starts rotation, then I go down to 2/3 or 3/4 until it kites. Full power after LOC.



Yep that's how Dave taught me, Go to full power until the lines are pulled tight and drop to 2/3 or 3/4 power until the chute is above head and inspect the chute then go to full power and fly away.

[texasbagpiper]

It means that one (or more) of your lines are over your chute rather than below it.

I've had this happen to me 2 times before and it was noticed during the preflight roll on both instances. One of those, pumping the steering caused the line to get back into place and all was well. The other one resulted in an aborted takeoff.

The third time it almost happened, I saw it happen while I was warming up and ever since I've adjusted my layout to prevent it. The breeze had been picking up the edges of my chute and the one line managed to go under the edge.


The only time I have ever seen a line over was when Travis was in training with Dave and Dave tried to pull on the steering line from the back seat but it didn't come back under so they had to stop and start over.

I'm guessing its easy to notice if you have a line over. Does this usually only happen on the ends of the chute?

[texas_tl]

For me, it's always been on the ends, but I've seen pictures of it more toward the middle.

Yes, it's easy to spot as long as you do a good rolling preflight.

[mignazito]

A line over is more likely to occur at or near the tips of the wing, but it can occur elsewhere and be more severe than at the tip only. It can also be a killer. This is one of the reasons I prefer the modified accordian layout. Not only can you spot a line over during layout, but this method is highly resistant to line overs on kite up.

[jumper]

Marty, Can you clarify the difference in an accordian vs modified accordian? I like the accordian cause it keeps the lines tighter. I also tuck the leading edge under as that keeps the chute from flapping around in case you have to warm up again.

[texasbagpiper]

A line over is more likely to occur at or near the tips of the wing, but it can occur elsewhere and be more severe than at the tip only. It can also be a killer. This is one of the reasons I prefer the modified accordian layout. Not only can you spot a line over during layout, but this method is highly resistant to line overs on kite up.


I think I would have to see somebody do it. I saw it done in your book but I have not tried it yet. Seeing it done in person or on video would probably be easier to follow.


Travis, are you still laying out the way Dave taught us. At the Olney fly'in everybody did it that way. Must be a Texas thing. Seth

[texas_tl]

Yeah, I still do the inverted method like Dave taught us. I just double check the lines around the edges to ensure there are no line overs. Several of the guys down here use what I think is the accordian method though since they can see their lines all stretched out.

[indoruwet]

Yeah, I still do the inverted method like Dave taught us. I just double check the lines around the edges to ensure there are no line overs. Several of the guys down here use what I think is the accordian method though since they can see their lines all stretched out.
If you pull the steering lines forward and lay them out next to the PPC, you have checked those.
Then grab the A lines, and shake them in an upward manner and you check those.
LBNL, grab the rest of the lines and shake those.

All a matter of making *Darn Sure*.

The matter of tucking the leading edge under, is good for those who have their engines thrust line almost horizontal at ground position.
My set-up, (modified form the original) is pointing upwards at a good angle , (almost 8 degrees) sufficient to point the blast over the chute, so I have not had that problem.

[texasbagpiper]

If you pull the steering lines forward and lay them out next to the PPC, you have checked those.
Then grab the A lines, and shake them in an upward manner and you check those.
LBNL, grab the rest of the lines and shake those.

All a matter of making *Darn Sure*.

The matter of tucking the leading edge under, is good for those who have their engines thrust line almost horizontal at ground position.
My set-up, (modified form the original) is pointing upwards at a good angle , (almost 8 degrees) sufficient to point the blast over the chute, so I have not had that problem.


That is the first thing we were taught after laying the chute out. First find the steering line and pull it out away from the other lines, then clear both sets of lines. Seth

[indoruwet]

That is the first thing we were taught after laying the chute out. First find the steering line and pull it out away from the other lines, then clear both sets of lines. Seth
So, have you ever had a line over or under ?

[Boback]

Marty, Can you clarify the difference in an accordian vs modified accordian? I like the accordian cause it keeps the lines tighter. I also tuck the leading edge under as that keeps the chute from flapping around in case you have to warm up again.

The difference is the tuck. A regular accordian layout does not tuck the leading edge, or mouth, of the chute. Some people tuck the leading edge under the top layer of the stack, others make the top layer longer so that it can be tucked under the bottom of the chute. Regardless how you do it, the entire mouth of the chute should be hidden in the tuck.

[jumper]

Modified is what I use then. Thanks Bob.

[Boback]

Modified is what I use then. Thanks Bob.

Now I use the accordion with a square but I don't know whether it works on an elliptical or not. I never flown an elliptical but I want to get qualified in one at some point, may even consider getting on in a few years.

[mignazito]

Works great with an elliptical. In fact I feel it's the only way, but there might be others I'm not aware of.

[jumper]

Bob, I started off with the SkyBolt. I was taught the inverted initially. I did'nt like it as I did'nt get uniform results with every takeoff. Plus the issue of slack lines. Then later, I was told to lay out inverted then push the cart forward essentially making a sort of accordian? Did'nt like that either. Once someone showed me the accordian I started having consistant results with launching. I did'nt realize the tuck made it modified. It is the fastest layout as well, for me anyway, and the most consistant. Looking back, it is probably best to learn on a square. You would have no problem going to an ellip. It is actually a "semi ellip". I have never flown a chiron but they tell me it is nothing like a chiron. Mine has never tried to overfly me, but it can get side to side especially with to much input in a cross wind. Awesome lift and turning capabilities. You would like it. I also don't have line cleats on my machine. I have heard different opinions on them. Anyone want to comment on line cleats?

[mignazito]

Line cleats are handy. Once you try them it's like the accordian layout and you'll like them. Keeps things neater and makes for a slightly smoother launch. The Skybolt performance and efficiency wise is better than a square, but not as good as the true ellips like the Chiron and Thunderbolt. I have tested them all and run charts on them all. The Skybolt is in between a 500 square and an E340 ellip performance wise.

The issue has to do with wing tapering from middle to tip. The BEST planform for this is an ellipse. Straight tapers or modified rounded tapers like the Skybolt can get close, but not quite there.

The E340 Thunderbolt and 340 Chiron are almost identical in performance if not identical. Some claim a noticable difference, but I have never been able to see it when compared on the same PPC and I have tried that. One mistake often amde when comparing these two is that you cannot use the same riser length on both. The Chiron needs longer riser than the Thunderbolt on the same spread.

[scottf]

I think line cleats are completely dependent on the machine. I fly a 6C with no line cleats and have never had a problem, nor seen problems on other 6Cs. I know that most Powrachutes have line cleats and probably have a need for them. Different attachment points and thrust angles may require cleats, just depends on your particular PPC.

[Boback]

It never fails, there is always something new to learn. Will somebody explain "line cleats" to me please?

Got a good long flight in tonight and ended with 20 minutes in the pattern with a CAP plane doing touch-n-goes. I was practicing steep approaches at idle. I can get two passes around before they came around once.

[AirSportAdventures]

It never fails, there is always something new to learn. Will somebody explain "line cleats" to me please?

Got a good long flight in tonight and ended with 20 minutes in the pattern with a CAP plane doing touch-n-goes. I was practicing steep approaches at idle. I can get two passes around before they came around once.

These are the riser hooks on the prop guard - just another name. :confused:

[jumper]

Bob, Most all Pegasus's I have seen come with line cleats installed on the prop ring. Some swear by them, others not. I'm not sure why one way or the other. Some say they keep them out of your prop, and I have had others tell me it's a good way to get a line in the prop?

Marty, Can you tell me what the differences are between the thunderbolt and the skybolt? Have you ever flown the SkyTrek? After reading you post again I understand the taper thing? True ellip vs semi ellip? But what are the main performance differences?

[woodyking]

Just a note on Powrachutes cleats, they tend to be sharp edged and I always slide a piece of clear vinyl tubing about 3/4" ID and 4" long over them. This lets you angle them upwards a little more also.
On the Pegasus, I would not fly one without the lines sleeves sewn on the risers. The big gap in front of the single prop ring has eaten many lines. That's what they made the metal plate to try to stop, but the real fix was the sleeve sewn on the risers. Woody

[Boback]

These are the riser hooks on the prop guard - just another name. :confused:

Thanks, I always heard them called Line Hooks and my Pegasus has them and I always use them.

[Boback]

Just a note on Powrachutes cleats, they tend to be sharp edged and I always slide a piece of clear vinyl tubing about 3/4" ID and 4" long over them. This lets you angle them upwards a little more also.
On the Pegasus, I would not fly one without the lines sleeves sewn on the risers. The big gap in front of the single prop ring has eaten many lines. That's what they made the metal plate to try to stop, but the real fix was the sleeve sewn on the risers. Woody

I do not have the line sleeves on my risers and I found no sharp edges on my line hooks. I do have the line shields on my PPC but I think they do little good as they are placed lower than the line hooks. Careful chute layout and keeping the lines tight is key on my Pegasus.

I have seen the line sleeves on some risers and I am not sure about that design. A steering line, by it's nature, can pick up dirt and particulars through normal use. Once a dirty section gets into the fabric tube those particles could be left in the tube becoming a wear component. This would require a careful and complete inspection of the steering line within the tube. I know everybody inspects their lines upon each flight, but the inspection attention needed for this area would be much more that what is being done by most.

I think the general idea is good but it needs some work.

[phil]

Bob, Most all Pegasus's I have seen come with line cleats installed on the prop ring. Some swear by them, others not. I'm not sure why one way or the other. Some say they keep them out of your prop, and I have had others tell me it's a good way to get a line in the prop?



Tim
I have always used them on my Pegasus. I have never found a sharp edge on mine, and I checked today, nor do I remember any on all the peg's I have been around, and this is something that would immediately perk up my ears.

Here's some thoughts on using them, and the position of them on the prop ring.
They should be mounted at the same level as the halo bars. I have seen them lower, on the widest part of the prop ring. Not as good of a position. I think the reason some end up putting them there is they are used to the wide low outrigger style attach & that's where they would be on a PPC like that, or a more experienced pilot who is not familiar with the high attach says they need to be lower, and the new pilot say's OK & moves them.

I also know pilots that don't use them, and this applies not only to a Pegasus, but any PPC. Laying them on the ground is a risk of a line getting under a tire, which to me is more likely than a line going in the prop.

When kiting the wing, the risers bring the chute up as you start your ground roll.
Having them up on the prop ring at the same level as the halo bars makes it a shorter trip.

When they're on the ground, as they come up, (a farther trip as well) they'll slide along the prop guard, and when it goes by the widest part, they have to flex outward & then back to the geometry they normally have, which can set up oscillation.

Another thing that happens when a wing kites is as the risers come up, they are not perfectly even, if you were looking at them from a side view. On a square, this is not a big issue, but on an elliptical, including the skybolt, that small amount of difference can induce false steering inputs, which can set up side to side oscillations. There is not much you can do to insure that this does not happen, other than ,making sure you have the wing set up plumb & square to the airframe, everything even.

[jumper]

Phil, I should have said most peg's I seen have the line cleats installed. I have thought about installing them but I hate the idea of drilling holes in my machine if I end up not liking them. I always layout with the center of the chute as centered on the hub as possible. I still almost always get some side to side before it center overhead. The SkyTrek as the low wide attach points. Do you think that cleats would help with that?

[woodyking]

The sharp edges I mentioned are from the punched out hooks. They have a dipped plastic coating that doesn't last long from what I've seen. When the coating is off, it leaves very sharp square edges. Check yours, right where the risers sit and take the tug. I haven't seen many that weren't pealing the coating.
The part of the lines covered by the sleeves can never touch the ground and shouldn't get any dirt on them. The pulleys still carry the strain of angle change, the sleeve should only keep the line from going out sideways into the prop.
I did do one with tie-wraps, spaced about 6 inches apart, using three ties to make one loop. Can send anyone pictures if they want to see. Woody

[phil]

Phil, I should have said most peg's I seen have the line cleats installed. I have thought about installing them but I hate the idea of drilling holes in my machine if I end up not liking them. I always layout with the center of the chute as centered on the hub as possible. I still almost always get some side to side before it center overhead. The SkyTrek as the low wide attach points. Do you think that cleats would help with that?


Tim,
before I would just drill holes for cleats, call Galen, (Sky Trek is Soaring Concepts) and see if he has a factory set up for that.