Sign off to solo questions

[Joe LINY]

I'm considering taking my PPC with me on vacation. At this point, my AFI (with ASC) has me signed off for solo within 5 miles of our home airport. I have a whopping total of about 8 hours solo time, I think about 14 hours total time. My PPC is 'A' numbered by ASC, and I'm registered with ASC.

Am I correct that; if checked out by a different instructor; I'm legal to fly solo, in whatever area he/she chooses?

What if I end up with an instructor signed off by EAA? No good for me, right?

It would be nice to get past the 25 hour point before anything with Sport Pilot becomes concrete...

Joe

[Bruce Brown]

I have always found limiting your solo area strange. To me, it indicates that you are okay to fly here, but not there. Will going 10 miles from your airport make you a worse pilot? This said, I can understand limitations such as no flying in wind more than 5 MPH.

Why don't you ask your instructor why he limits you to that specific region, tell him what you want to do, and ask him to sign you off for it? I have a feeling that many instructors limit you to a specific area because that is what their instructor did to them.

If 10 miles away you were in the mountains, it may have some merit, but in most places it won't. Around here, I could go 200 miles and fly in the same type of winds and terrain as right here at home.

I'll bet if you ask you will receive the endorsement you need, especially if he feels you are competent.

[Waltm]

Getting "checked out" by another instructor is not going to legally allow you to fly in any place that you choose.

The ASC's position is that a student "solo" pilot should be limited to a "familiar" area until he ( or she ) builds flight proficiency and knows the area and doesn't get "lost in the air" (which isn't too difficult to do, btw...).

Keep in mind that signing off on a "solo" endorsement does NOT mean that the pilot with a two-seat ppc has finished his training. It just means that he is signed off to build flight proficiency - at least 25 hours - until he is ready to take the BFI training and tests. The BFI training should take about another 10 hours of ground and dual training. The pilot is still considered a "student" and is not allowed to take passengers aloft until he has passed the BFI testing. The flying area limitation was put into place because you're not supposed to be doing anything except building proficiency for the first 25 hours - and, supposedly, there's no reason for you to go off in unfamiliar areas while you're first building that proficiency. You should get familiar with your machine while staying within an area that you know (usually about 10 miles from your home base). If you want to go to some airfield outside of your "home" area, your instructor has to sign you off for an endorsement for the particular area and time that you want to go.

In a lot of ways the ASC and other ultralight organizations have patterned their pilot/BFI programs in a way that's similar to getting your GA pilot's license. To get a pilot's license, you have to first get proper training to the point where you are signed off to solo. Then, you're given permission to fly solo in the 'practice area' for your flight school. Usually, this is a rectangular or triangular area that's about 30-50 miles on a side. This is enough to give a solo student pilot enough area to practice their maneuvers and give them the chance to "stretch their wings" - yet keep them close to home in case of bad weather forming or getting lost. A student pilot can't fly a passenger. You have to get your pilot's license to be able to fly a passenger. The student pilot must get an endorsement by his instructor each time he goes out of the practice area for solo cross country flights.

Quite a few similarities between the two, aren't there?

ASC: Signed off to fly solo within a certain limited area.
GA: Signed off to fly solo within a certain limited area.

ASC: Build solo proficiency for at least 25 hours.
GA: After first solo, complete at least 20 hours solo time before
you can get your pilot's license.

ASC: Get endorsement for any flights outside of the home area.
GA : Get endorsement for any flights outside of the home area.

ASC: Approximately 30-35 hours to BFI (25 hours solo and 5-10
hours dual)
GA : Minimum 40 hours to get Private Pilot's license.

ASC: Pass BFI (Basic Flight Instructor) in order to fly anywhere
and take "students" for intro flights or pilot training.
GA: Pass your Flight check to get your pilot's license and be able
to fly anywhere and take passengers.

About the only difference between the two is that the ultralight ASC BFI gives you the authorization to train other student pilots. But then, that's what the Exemption 6080 is all about - providing a way for a two-place ultralight to legally fly.

Remember, two place ultralights can NOT be used for recreational flying - according to the FAA. Every two-place UL is a TRAINING-ONLY machine. If you're flying solo, you're not "fun flying". You're "building proficiency". If you've got a passenger, you're not "taking a friend up for a ride", you're "instructing a new student".

Obviously, the training exemption is a big joke. The UL organizations have no organized "police" force to make sure that everyone who flies a two-place machine is doing so legally. That's one of the reasons that the FAA has come up with the Sport Pilot initiative. Sport Pilot will require more structured training which will make flying more safe. It will also eliminate the much-abused training exemption for ultralights and make it possible for a pilot to fly with a passenger for fun without making up the farce that each such flight is a "training flight".

A lot of people are bemoaning that SP will take away some of the current "freedoms" that they enjoy now as Ultralighters. I disagree. Better training will make better pilots. What leniency that currently exists will probably have to be tightened up a notch. But the pilots trained under Sport Pilot will be more informed, better trained and will be more SAFE in the air. I think that's worth the little extra hassle, following of new rules and expense that we're going to have to endure.

Some of the naysayers to Sport Pilot put up the argument that Ultralight flying is not that dangerous to GA and that Sport Pilot won't greatly enhance the safety factor. Heck! They've been doing it this way for years and no major accidents have happened. Although I will somewhat agree with that argument, I find fault with it taken as a whole. I just started flying a PPC two years ago. In that two years, the sport has grown exponentially. I rarely saw a ppc before I purchased mine. Now, I regularly see them and other ultralights flying over my general area. They're all over the place now! The skies are becoming more crowded with the recreational flyer. That spells trouble.

Too many UL pilots are poorly trained and I see the potential for flight incursions building. Sport Pilot will produce better trained pilots. If this prevents just one accident and saves just one life, I think that it's worth it.

[135Boomer]

Whoa walt that was a mouthful. Glad there are people out there that stay up on the current stuff but I thought the reason we flew Part 103 ultralight was to stay away from all that mumbo jumbo. I would hope that if someone chose to fly away from their home field they would not get lost going 26mph. Might want to try a different hobby if that's the case. I dont want to be a blacksheep but to keep everything in perspective I've never had a single minute of formal training and I've flown all over the country. I fly when and where I want to. (providing it's legal of course) I know the rules of Part 103 and abide by them accordingly. I had a great teacher who taught me the fundamentals the rest is common sense i.e. flying into power lines, mountains, other planes, water, ect is bad... Then again I fly a single place in an area with a fairly low density of ultralights. It just seems to me some of you are taking flying PPC's waaaaaaayyy to serious. :confused: I'll get off my horse now.

[Waltm]

LOL - You're right. It IS a mouthful. :-)

That's the way that the system is *supposed* to work, however. You learn and get competent while staying close to home and, once you're signed off on your BFI, you're legal to go anywhere.

Keep in mind that this ONLY applies to *TWO-PLACE* machines. A single place ultralight has no area restriction. They don't even require any formal training. Single place UL's are as simple as:

1) Get one
2) Get ballsy enough to get in it and take off (without training)
3) Go fly!

With Exemption 6080, the FAA was trying to implement some minimum level of safety for the person in the back seat. Their position was that if you've got a single place, they don't care if you get in it and kill yourself. They won't even look your way when you DO smack it into the ground (unless you also smack into someone else on your way to the ground). With a two-place machine, however, you've got someone else to kill. THAT is what they're trying to eliminate.

If you're flying a two-place machine without a BFI rating and out of your "home area" without a signoff by your instructor, then you're in violation of Exemption 6080 and you're not flying Part 103 legal.

That's the *LEGAL* part of it. Does anyone follow that completely and always to the letter of the law? I doubt it very seriously. If you're flying safely and know the rules of the air then more power to you, m'man!!!

Get back home safely, Boomer. Do you have a single-place machine or a two-place?

[Joe LINY]

Talked to my instructor today - at this point he is comfortable with whichever route I choose to go. I can go through other instructors, or my instructor can rewrite my solo endorsement. He would want a heads up on what area I would be flying in (just in case, God forbid, I make the local news), and, of course, it would be my responsiblity to ensure I'm flying in suitable surroundings for a PPC.

Walt, my eight hours may be throwing you unnecessarily- I have had fixed wing training prior to this (never went for the checkride-I had the same problem I'm finding now - weather preventing me from staying current), I know how to read a sectional, call WX-Brief, and, so far, judge weather conditions prior to flight. I don't intend on driving along; saying hey, nice soy field there, I think I'll squeeze a flight in! My goal is to build hours, not sightsee. If I just wanted to fly I could have squeezed in many opportunities by simply defying my instructor's signoff and flying off my own farm!

When my fixed wing training ran out of steam due to weather, job, and kids, I kept my subscriptions to AOPA and other flight magazines. Since articles on planes that cost more than a Long Island house did'nt interest me much, I read a lot of the pilot experiences and safety articles. The thing that does most pilots in is bad judgement - the "I'll be out of this cloud in a minute" stuff. You may find my instructor's methods odd, but he self learned PPCs when there was no other instructors - I think he feels certain judgement calls can only be learned by doing. I realize the risk involved in PPCs, but if I keep my head screwed on straight the biggest risk involved in this trip is taking my wife and 2 kids (and mother-in-law- don't get me started on how she's tagging along) in the same car cross country!

The loose end to tie up is exactly where to fly- So far we have a very loose itinerary...From NY we'll be heading to DC for a day or two, than it's dependent on the national weather picture. We want to end up someplace *WARM*. If Florida isn't going into frost mode, we may end up in Orlando than maybe in Marco Island to visit family. If the weather looks better out West, we might head to Texas or even further! (Walt - a side note here: When you first posted pics of your Galveston trip; I was showing everybody the shots of the awesome sunset, as I paged through, we came to the pic of your girlfriend; curtly my wife said "you are NOT going to Galveston" :) )

So, my next step is to start building a list of PPC friendly airfields, (Grass only for me) and BFIs as well, to see what I come up with.
Is there any favorites you guys would like to mention? Any fields to stay away from, due to high traffic, unobvious obstructions, etc.?

Again, Walt, I'm trying to build hours towards the BFI rating on this trip - If I can't fly at home - how do I learn? Once Spring rolls in I probably won't get the chance to fly til shipping season slows down; maybe June. In GA if you want to fly in an unfamiliar area (ie mountains)or different plane, what does one do? I believe you seek out an instructor familar with the surroundings...

Joe

[135Boomer]

That's the *LEGAL* part of it. Does anyone follow that completely and always to the letter of the law? I doubt it very seriously. If you're flying safely and know the rules of the air then more power to you, m'man!!!

Walt I hear what your saying.. I see tons of people out there breaking the rules. We have a few guys flying Challengers where I live with 582's and 10 gallons of fuel cruising at 70 mph. My dad went through the entire ASC BFI process a few years back and remember him mumbling nasty things about the whole legality of it. He was a HHF dealer and BFI for a couple years and finally gave it up because he was tired of all the junk that went along with it. All the rules are good though and in place for reason. (You should see all the regs we have to follow on the KC-135!!)

My Six Chuter is a single place so I'll just keep in cruisin fat dumb and happy..haha:p Looks like I'll be home in a week and then I get a week off so hoping to get some flying in!

[Waltm]

Hi Joe,

I think that y'all might have mistaken my comments a bit. I'm not saying to leave your ppc at home 'cause you're only signed off for a specific area. Heck! What's the point in getting one of these dream machines if we don't explore new territory with them sometime. It gets boring flying around the same area over and over again. Your vacation trip sounds like an awesome idea (except for the mother-in-law part).

I was simply making sure that you're clear on what the rules are - just in case you get tagged by the FAA. Forewarned is forearmed...

And I meant the comments to be read as general information by anyone reading this forum. They weren't aimed at you personally. If you feel confident enough to fly safely - go for it!

If you get a chance, come on down to Texas. The winds were calm here today and the temperature was up to 58. Still a bit cool for us Texans but perfect for flying with some warm clothing.

Judy's a sweetheart. She loves to go to the flyins with me and wants to learn how to fly herself.

Take care and have a fun and safe vacation!

Walt...

[Joe LINY]

Hi Walt,

Sorry - I wasn't sure how to take your comments before. One of the reasons I purchased a PPC was ease of transport, and the chance to fly in different areas.

58 degrees sounds downright tropical right now!

Joe

[Waltm]

65 degrees today.

It's a few minutes after midnight and the temperature outside is still 58... :-)

Happy flying! I'm going to head out in the morning and get an hour or so in (if I can wake up)

Walt...

[Jerry Warner]

Walt,

Keep at it buddy. I'm behind you all the way.

While I enjoy the rather easy rules we have for PPC units I also believe rules are there for a reason. They should be followed and they apply to everyone else as much as they apply to me.

My own PPC training was poor. I'd hope others were trained better than I was.

Over confidence is common in some new students and it almost always ends up in getting them hurt. As instructors it's our job to evaluate each student to determine what limits to put on that student.

If one of my students doesn't stay in those limits then he'd better find himself another instructor. I won't accept that lack of respect as an instructor.